14/09/07 Milov SMASH

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:53 am

It's a good thing that whole parent thing is just about honoring, cause if it was to obey, well... I would already have my ticket to Hell just for moving to a country seen as the true den of evil by my current fellow citizens.

However honoring is a bit hard at times ever since they divorced... meh.

Anyway, as for Siggy, even though I REALLY liked that guy, I won't deny he deserved Hell, he's done too much wrong already (which was really entertaining). Besides, he seems to have fun slicing demons!
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Also known as Undead Katharos

Brought to life by the collective insanity of the Dominic Deegan Fansite.

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:16 pm

I can agree to disagree, since we're both not likely to budge, BUT you should note Siggy was being attacked when he took out the guards. You should also note people do snap into blind rages (which Siggy is known for, it's what I suggest is his mental illness - comparable to someone who has done too much E...drains their Serotonin levels permenantly, and then they're prone to wild mood swings. just like Siggy! So either Siggy is addicted to Ecstacy, or he has a problem with mood swings) when someone they love is taken from them, particularily in such a gruesome manner. Was it entirely Dominics fault? No. The Orc guy killed Siggys dad. But Dominic played god, and said he wouldn't help, so he's pretty darned guilty in that aspect.

Finally, Siggy -DID- try to atone for his past sins prior to the war in hell. I suggest you re-read the Scarlatti bit. He preaches to Scarlatti about Scarlatti being a thug for hire, and how he lived that life once, and he was trying to better himself, and make up for all the shitty things he did in the past.

I honestly think Mookie realized if everyone was redeemed in his comic, it would have little story to pursue. So he demonized Siggy in the last arc Siggy lived in, so he could become a bad guy later on in the comic. I also think Mookie made the demonizing a grey area on purpose, so people could decide for themselves if Siggy was truly evil, or mentally unbalanced. I choose the latter, because in all previous instances of Siggy doing bad things, he was doing it with the ideal of justice in mind.

As for your point regarding Callan hiring a bunch of thugs, I think that was already proven in that War in Hell arc, and the Scarlatti duel. The other knights seem to be pretty darn corrupt, iirc. The only one who ever seemed to be actually redeemed was....reinholt, was it? The one Dominic said he forsaw in an old folks home festering in his own filth.

And no, I do not love siggy to a fault. I see his issues for what they are; a mental illness, very comparable to someone who has depleted Serotonin levels (E-addicts) or other mental diseases where the person afflicted is prone to wild mood swings. There IS a reason prozak exists, right?

Furthermore, I think it's unfair that people are so quick to dismiss him, and say he deserved hell, when he was obviously at war with himself, internally. He tried to better things, but for the sake of the plot, he had to be made to be twisted, so he could go to hell, and give us the arc we're reading now. Kinda like how Stonewater HAD to rape melna, to give them the relationship they currently have. This is the only reason I ever said Stonewater deserves to go to hell, if Siggy does. The only difference between the two, is Stonewater was given an honest chance to make up for what he did, and is a much less mentally unstable character. Siggy recanted on his deathbed, after an apparent series of failures to try and control his anger management problem. He was forgiven, as well, but didn't get his last rites, so he was taken to hell by Karnak (as is my understanding).

The first step to redeeming the self is to admit you have a problem. Siggy did that. The second, is to take small steps to change, and work on your issues. He did that. The third, is to have some friends catch you if you slip up. For some reason, Jayden and Milov never seemed to fit this bill. They just sort of told him to stop beating crippled people with their own walking sticks. (Which he was doing because he was in a rage, again, doing it for the name of justice, because an entire town told the knights that Dominic & co. were evil wizards.)

Again, if you want to stop going back and forth with this, that's fine. I just tend to stick up for those that people seem to easily dismiss as "unfixable" and "deserving of hell". He didn't really do anything that could qualify as "out of the norm" for someone with a mental illness whos fathers head landed in his lap. Everything he did was for Justice. Unfortunately, Callan justice is a twisted justice...and I think as Siggy was dying, he was truly sorry for everything horrible that he had done. He showed it when he made the other knights back off during the duel, and during the War in Hell, the only people he attacked were the ones attacking him (mind controlled knights) and the one asshole who played god, resulting in his father being killed (Dominic). Also, that Orc fella. But I think we all agree that particular orc was pretty evil.

I mean...are all mentally unstable racist people in the modern world deserving of hell? No. They deserve help. Something Siggy was never provided. Stonewater was. That's pretty much the only thing saving his green ass from burning in the brimstone, because rape is most definitely a sin.

But I suppose, as I said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:52 pm

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:39 pm

Left the forum Joined : 29 Apr 2007 Posts : 732

Dotty: I take it by 'refusing to help' Siggy's father, you're refering to this scene? I'm going to point out something--Dominic refused... nothing. He was simply overcome. People 'playing God' don't stand there blubbering like a schoolgirl with a skinned knee.

In fact, he was the one who set up the events that ultimately released Siggy's dad from the Infernomancer's control.

So, actually, y'know, Dominic had already done everything he could to help Siggy's dad. His 'refusal', as you're portraying it, was simply being emotionally stunned into silence and tears after seeing the atrocities Siggy's dad had committed, and how he'd encouraged his son to do the same.

Unfortunately, the Butcher was, in the end, too hate-filled to be able to take advantage of it. Had he and Dom teamed up, they could very likely have faced down the Infernomancer. Instead, he ended up as a hood ornament.

Now, in Siggy's defense, he didn't know or understand all of that. Things did happen too fast for him to catch up. But even then, I'm sorry--but deciding that your first course of action is killing the guy whom you think 'did nothing', instead of going after the guy who actually killed your father, is succumbing to the same rage that ruled Siggy's whole life.

Finally: The chemical imbalance/tormented upbringing defense is, oddly, both the best and the worst in the bunch. In the real world, I'm actually inclined to accept it (in the sense that I think that people with such problems should be treated rather than simply tossed into a cell). So the question becomes, do such things exist in the world of Dominic Deegan? If so--if brain chemistry and upbringing can be shown to be the primary drives in a person, and someone's actions are simply the emergent product of environmental conditions, then why is there a "Heaven" or "Hell" at all? After all, Siggy's father probably shared the same genetic flaw, and would've been raised in a similar fashion--and also fought in the war, and we've seen plenty of evidence about what war can do to even seemingly stable individuals in the real world. But, no, these people have souls. We've seen them; and while these souls can be influenced with dark magics, a person is otherwise generally responsible for the state of their being. (Mind you, this failing could also be attributed to more of Mookie's helter-skelter world-building approach.)

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:27 am

Two things to touch on. He called Siggys dad a monster, and that stare isn't one where you're overcome with grief. That stare is a "No. I'm not going to help him, because he's a horrible monster." Thus why Siggy smacks him in the face. It's one of the few times Siggy wailed on someone where I actually agreed with it. Dominic needed that. Playing god is a no-no.

It also reminds me how much I miss colored strips over the one-panel copouts. T_T

As for the heaven/hell thing, I'm going to go with the helter-skelter approach, because they obviously understand mental illness to some degree; Snowsong got off pretty easy considering what she did. They said they were going to get her help. I was also under the impression Karnak took Siggys soul, as opposed to that being where it would naturally go....as Karnak interrupted the last rites with OH NO YOU DON'T, HE'S MINE! suggesting if Dominic did get those last rites off, Siggy would go to heaven....or that Siggy would go to heaven for finally realizing everything he did wrong, and being honestly sorry for it, and Karnak said "nuh-uh."

I'm going to assume this is a power of the Demon of Wounds, since Siggy was very wounded, it would make him vulnerable, or something. The whole soul-taking thing wasn't really explained.

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:12 am

The problem with arguing whether Siggy will go to heaven or hell is we don't know what the pre-requisites are for either. Well that's not true. If you outright barter with demons, you go to hell. Not much has been portrayed about heaven, besides Klo-tark qualifying for it. It's possible that he became a Luanian worshiper whilst studying under Acibek, but otherwise we can assume that being a good guy all round will get you into heaven.

It might actually be that Siggy was just going to meet the man at the gates and have all his deeds weighed up to see whether he gets in or not. Who knows. Anyway, I'll agree to disagree on this one.

P.S. I don't see the problem with raising Stonewater as a topic at this point in time. I think most of us have come to terms with what was portrayed within the arc, and whether or not we agree or disagree, we can at least rationally discuss it.

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:45 am

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:59 am

Judge not lest ye be judged.
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Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:01 pm

Subject: Re: 14/09/07 Milov SMASH Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:21 pm

Left the forum Joined : 29 Apr 2007 Posts : 732