Mary Sues

Honor and Virtue Joined : 31 Mar 2007 Posts : 4279

http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html
http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm
http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html

For many readers and writers, Sues/Stus are a pet peeve and can ruin a good story. Is that true for you? I'm just curious, and this seemed the best place to pose the question.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:15 pm

Well, I still like DD despite the obvious Gary Stu >.>
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:45 pm

As long as I'm still immersed in the story, I don't mind. For example, Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos character is one of the biggest Gary Stus ever and I hardly even noticed or cared until Taltos, four books in. Even then, I kept on reading since I (usually) enjoyed it anyway. To me, faulting it would've been like calling a cool solo at a rock concert "self-indulgent": yeah, so? The Mary Sues that really bug me are self-indulgences in otherwise bad writing, like how the appeal of a video of someone masturbating depends heavily on the attractiveness of the person.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:17 pm

I like to come up with my own characters, but usually any characters I like and use I've had going in my mind for years and years, and thus, are too emotionally attached to really change them.

That being said, I don't mind Mary Sues if they're alright in application..

Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:18 pm

I developed my interest in literature very much removed from a classroom, and as such many of the "rules" never really made their way into my head. I wrote cuz I liked to do it, and people started telling me they liked it. As I've gone along, taking classes and speaking with other people who are interested in literature, I've learned that a lot of things I do are "against the rules." Personally, I'm glad I became good at writing before I learned about all this stuff. Rules were made to be broken. If you think you have something worth writing about, then write about it, and to hell with anybody who complains that one of your characters is a Mary Sue, or that you're "showing, not telling."

One of my own characters Beloch Shrike hit the bottom rung on the first Mary Sue test you posted there, and that's AFTER several revisions I made to the character over the last year to make him less overpowered and cliche. Yet people still claim to enjoy the stories I write about him. And hell, I enjoy writing them.

If I changed or got rid of him just because he's a Mary Sue, then I would be giving in to the black turtle-neck asshole crowd. If anything, I dislike people who complain that a character is a Mary Sue, without giving any other indication as to why they dislike the story.
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Honor and Virtue Joined : 31 Mar 2007 Posts : 4279

Thank you. It's nice to get to a place where you don't see everyone up in arms over a "Sue." If it's a well thought out character, who cares?

And I can't stand that top link - EVERYTHING's a Sue on it. I just posted it as one of the first Google results.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:11 am

I can't believe I actually found another English nerd who agrees with me on this. X'D
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Joined : 07 Apr 2007 Posts : 445

The Mary Sue classification seems far too broad for me to give a definitive opinion on the matter. There are some Mary Sue traits that I see as not being a major problem at all while there are others that might be dealbreakers by themselves even if no other Mary Sue traits exist in the character. I think, for the most part, I'm fine with Mary Sue characters.

Subject: Re: Mary Sues Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:10 am

It is. It's INCREDIBLY broad. That and they aren't all bad. Some are, some aren't. All in all it's a shitty classification system.

For example, though even on the strictest of tests my newer characters rank higher than my older characters, I don't feel any worse about them. Sure, I can go back to some of my old writing and point out some lame spots, but that's part of development.

According to most of these tests, developing an emotional attachment to your characters is a bad thing. EMPATHY is somehow WRONG. That is absurd. I feel that each character I make is a small part of me. Alexei is my sub. Swallow is my libido. Chera is my techno nerd. Nikara is my macho side (my macho side is expressed in a female character. Ironic, no?).

Sol Badguy is a Mary Sue. A very obvious one. Is he a bad character? HELL NO! He's badASS. Many people take "Mary Sue" to be synonymous with "Bad Character"...and it's not. While, granted, bad characters tend to rank a LOT higher on this list...and rankings are generally grouped with a specific person (I have a friend who plays a lot of rather lame or overpowered characters...and she ranks very high on those kinds of tests with ALL of them. However, she is by no means unpleasant to play with.)

I think the first step is to differentiate between Mary Sues and Bad Characters.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:52 am

It doesn't help that some RPG systems have a certain level of "Sue" built into character creation (I'm looking at you, Exalted).

The whole Sue argument really steps on my English toes. If there isn't a certainly amount of boringness about a character, then he becomes a Sue and (what gets me) NEEDS to be fixed.

Le one: very few characters NEED to be fixed, and even still, if it's an RPG, that's at the discretion of the GM, not the whiny player who doesn't like some aspects of another player's character.

Le two: what in the nine hells is wrong with a character being attractive or having talent at something or having strange colored eyes or LIKING ANIMALS? RPGs are ROLE-playing games. It's an opportunity to step outside the boundaries of the mundane and be something (perhaps) extravagant for a change.

I can understand how writers could perhaps use tests like this as a guideline to see "oh, this character's a little too much" or "I have to justify why he's that cool," but to use tests and a mindset like that entirely is stifling creativity.

I'm no authority, and I admit to having some horrible designed characters (ick, Kreuz's first incarnation), but the fact that a decent-sized chunk of the writing and RPG communities have this as the DEFINITIVE divining rod of prowess is disgusting.

Honor and Virtue Joined : 31 Mar 2007 Posts : 4279

Now, the bad kind of Mary Sue is the only kind I disagree with.

By bad, I mean simply this: no harm of any kind ever comes to the character. S/he is indestructible, omnipotent, whatever. A demigod among mortals. S/he is always right, no matter what.

This kind of character cannot grow and develop. This is a flat character who exists to be adored. There is no point in reading about this character because you know s/he will learn nothing and be exactly the same at the end.

A good Mary Sue, however, is peachy. I see no problem if the author wants to insert him/herself into the story if s/he doesn't mind allowing the character a little growth and change.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:03 am

I didn't really even know what a mary sue WAS until I clicked on a couple of the links at the beginning of this. And when I took the test for Katyra, alot of the questions got the response "Well, yeah, but otherwise how can they be the main character?" Because, ya know, a character killed off in the first chapter? Not gonna be the main character?

I figure as long as the character doesn't stray far from "believable," (and I think we all realize that's a term that relies alot on the universe the character is grounded in) and they're well written, I'm not gonna complain.

Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:56 pm

Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:28 pm

Mary Sue's tends to be the bane of most fanfiction readers/writers. I'm always loathe to classify a book or television character as a Mary Sue, and tend to only use the term within the basis of a fandom. It seems a bit judgemental in original work.
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Subject: Re: Mary Sues Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:03 pm

Well me and my fiancé decided to take the ponyland mstest (first link of the first post) and we got over 100 points for characters we loved (Rydia, Edge, Cloud, Sephiroth...)

Then for fun we took the test again while pretending to be God and filled it to measure two humans (me and fiancé).

Fiancé: 58
Me: 42

So should God or whatever created us kill us now and place new bland humans in our stead?
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